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Herald. You described an occasion once, before Naguib Mahfooz won the Nobel Prize, when an American publisher called you and asked for a list of writers. Could you tell that story for the benefit of our readers?
Said. I will tell you exactly. The publisher called me sometime in 1980 or ’81 and asked for a list of third world writers, because he wanted to start a series, and I put Mahfooz at the top of the list. A few months later, I saw this publisher and I said well, what have you picked? So he told me that Mahfooz was not one of the writers that he had chosen. I asked him why. After all, Mahfooz was the greatest Arabic writer, and a world figure. Why would he drop him? He said: “Well, you see, Arabic is a controversial language.” The language is controversial! I mean, what are we talking about here?
I’ll give you another example. There is a great deal done in American universities, in their literature departments, with medieval studies: medieval English, medieval French, and so on. And the phrase medieval is understood to cover the entire middle ages.
Yet, not a single instance can I think of in which medieval courses and programmes ever include Andalusian, Muslim civilisation, which was exactly contemporary with that of say Dante, Chaucer, Aquinas etcetra, etcetra. And on a much higher level, whether it be science or literature or theology or medicine, it’s just left out! So, if you live in this culture and you come from the part of the world (the Arab and Islamic world), you have to pay the price of this, lapse, let’s call it.
Herald. Now, on the other hand, your own works are very widely distributed in the West and equally sought after in the third world. With Orientalism, you had a profound galvanizing influence on an entire generation. It has been translated into seventeen or eighteen languages, and to many among us, it represents a manifesto, so to speak, a state of mind. Tell us, have you had the time, so many years since 1978 when that book came out, to sit down and scrutinize the changes in perception it has brought about?
Said. Well, yes, I think it has changed perceptions. In the west, for instance, in certain fields, such as anthropology, history, cultural studies, feminist studies, it has influenced people to think about problems of power relationships between cultures and peoples, where dominance includes the power to represent and create, to control and to manipulate. In other words, it makes the argument for the connection between the production of knowledge and power. And specifically, because it was a historical work, it really looks at all of this in the age of empire.
Now, one of the things I was slightly disturbed by, in terms of the book’s influence in the Muslim world, was that it was considered by some to be a book in defense of Islam, which it was not at all. I have nothing to say about Islam; what I talk about are representations of Islam, rather than Islam itself. I suppose somebody could write a book about portrayals of the West in the Islamic world, and come up with roughly the same distortions. But what I am really interested in, to make my point, is not just distortion, because distortion always occurs, but rather in trying to facilitate an understanding of how it occurs, and what might be done to ameliorate it. So, that is one point.
Another reflection is that since Orientalism came out in 1978, I have myself started thinking of the problem of orientalism in a wider context. Beginning in 1984-85, I started working on a book, nearly finished now and scheduled to come out later this year, which is a kind of sequel to Orientalism, but looks at the problem in a global context.
In other words, I try to look at Africa, I look at the Middle East, I look at India and Pakistan and I try to discover what the role of culture was in forming imperialism in the West. In the middle of the book, I look at the role of culture in the process of decolonisation and resistance to imperialism – in other words, what role culture played in resisting empire in places like India and what is now Pakistan, in Africa, the Caribbean and so on.
And then, in the last chapter, I look at the role of the United States after classical empires were dismantled in World War II, to see, since the extraordinary role that the United States played as the last remaining imperial power, and the influence of that role upon knowledge and the production of knowledge. And all of this really comes out of my work on orientalism. I have tried to extend it and take it further, looking not only at the aggressive aspects of empire but also at the resistances to empire that people like you and I were able to mount. After all, empires didn’t last. India gained its independence in 1947. So, something happened, and that is what I look at in this book.
Herald. Getting back to Orientalism itself. Tell us, was there a sequence of events in your life which led to the writing of Orientalism?
Said. Well, there are several germs. One of the things was when I was growing up after we left Palestine and were in Egypt. Although my family was well off and I went to colonial schools in Palestine and Egypt, I realised that no matter what I was by virtue of family or education or language, to a ruling Englishman – and this is colonial Egypt in 1948-49 – I would always remain a wog. It was brought home to me in an episode I will never forget.
I was walking home across the fields of the Gazira Sporting Club in Cairo, a great colonial sporting club of which my family was a member. It was a club really for the English but they admitted a few locals. So, I was walking home (we lived near the club) and the man whom I saw coming towards me on a bicycle was the secretary of the club, an Englishman named Mr. Pilly. He stopped me and said: “Boy, what are you doing here” and I replied, “I’m walking home.” And he said: “Don’t you know you’re not allowed to be here” and I said “Yes, I am allowed to be here. Because my family is a member.” And he said “Boy, you are not allowed here. You are an Arab boy. Get out.” Now the irony of this is) and by the way, I did get out: I was scared) that Mr Philly’s son was a classmate of mine at school. Now these are the sort of formative experiences where you come to understand that race, in the colonial context-no matter what else goes on – is determining. So that’s one of the germs to it.
Another germ was 1967, when I was here already. I was a professor at Columbia. I was not at all involved in politics. I was a student of European literature and a professor of it. But then the war broke out and I realised the enormous cultural hatred and bias towards Arabs and the Arab world, and that politicised me. That is to say, being an Arab, I identified with the Arab losses and realised how much of the loss was due to the fact that we were considered to be an inferior people. I began to try to understand where that image they had of us came from.
The last point that I want to make about Orientalism, which is also very important, is that I don’t think I would have written that book had I not been politically associated with a struggle. The struggle of Arab and Palestinian nationalism is very important to that book. Orientalism is not meant to be an abstract account of some historical formation but rather a part of the liberation from such stereotypes and such domination of my own people, whether they are Arabs, or Muslims or Palestinians.
Herald. It’s good you brought it up, Professor Said, since we were about to turn to Palestine any way. You concluded The Question of Palestine by saying that by saying: “We must not forget that Palestine is saturated with blood and violence, and we must look forward realistically to much turbulence, much ugly human waste, in the short term.
Unhappily, the question of Palestine with renew itself in all too well-known forms. But so too will the people of Palestine-Arabs and Jews-whose past and future binds them inexorably together. Their encounter has yet to occur on any important scale. But it will occur, I know, and it will be to their mutual benefit.” Now with the advent of direct negotiations (and the third round of negotiations in Washington will already have taken place by the time this is printed) do you think that the encounter, so to speak, has occurred?
Said. Yes I think it really began to occur during the Intifada, with the beginning of the Intifada in December of 1987, and it has continued to occur. The Israelis have had to confront the reality of the Palestinian nation. I am not talking about rioting individuals or of throwing stones. I am talking about a nation. For the first time in their history, Israelis are dealing with an entire population which constitutes a nation because.
Of course, that entire population in the Occupied Territories is tied with people like myself, who live in exile. More than half of the Palestinian population lives outside Palestine. Forty-five percent live on this land of historical Palestine, that is to say the Occupied Territories and present day Israel, and fifty-dive percent live abroad, like myself and my entire family, who were made refugees in 1948.
This has made Israel confront, first through the Intifada and then through the declaration of Palestinian statehood in Algiers in 1988, then the recognition of Israel by the Palestinians, and now through these talks, the reality of the Palestinian nation. It is coming. It is very, very slow. But I have no doubt that at the end of the process there will be an independent Palestinian state.
I also have no doubt, however, that Israel as a nation- and I’m not talking about individuals but rather an establishment –had made very little progress towards us and towards what we have done as people. They still will not recognize the PLO. They still will not recognize Palestinian nationalism.
I don’t know if you notice this, and most people in the West are not aware of this, but when Shamir and Netanyahu (Israel’s deputy foreign minister) speak they never speak about the Palestinians, they always call them “the Palestinian Arabs.” That’s still a part of their political make-up; that we (the Palestinians) are not a people.
Herald. So you don’t exist?
Said. Well, we do exist, but they refer to us as “aliens” who lie on the land of Eretz Israel. The more honest Likud settler in Israel refers to the Palestinians on the West bank and Gaza as “aliens” on the land of Israel. So, they have made no progress yet in coming to terms with our reality as a nation. The same is true of the most American Jews.
I can’t speak of Jews in the West, but American Jews, with a few exceptions, still cannot reconcile themselves to the existence of our nationhood. And one of the reasons is that the whole enterprise that brought Israel into being was premised upon our non-existence. Now, suddenly, forty-five years later, they discover that not only are we here now, but that we have been here all along, and it’s something that’s just very difficult for them to accept.
Herald. Do you think that an encounter on a major scale, at this point in time (and we are talking about, say, the next two years), is at all possible without the PLO and Yasser Arafat coming overtly into the picture?
Said. No it’s not. And, in fact, it is taking place with the PLO. In other words, there is this tremendous illusion, mainly because of this ludicrous puerile attitude of the Americans and the Israeli’s, that if you exclude the physical presence of the PLO, the PLO will go away. The delegation sent to Madrid and to Washington was chosen by the PLO. Everything they say or do is referred to and approved by the PLO. The delegates receive directives from the PLO.
Many of them are supporters of parties within the PLO. And all of them recognize the supreme authority of the PLO as the national organisation representing Palestinian identity as a nation. So, I think this ‘we are not talking with the PLO’ business is a reflection on the juvenile qualities of the Americans and the Israelis. They say, “Well, you know, we are not dealing with them.”
But on the other hand, they are dealing with them in this roundabout way. They are prisoners of their own silly ideology that the PLO is nothing but a terrorist organisation. If you believe that kind of lie then you can’t really deal with reality. That’s why I am really proud of the fact that the Palestinians are mature and are able to deal with the Israelis as they are.
We don’t need ideological fiction. We can say: “We are dealing with Israel” We are not dealing with “the Zionist entity.” And it’s true, we are the ones who want to deal with the Israeli government; they are the ones who have difficulty sitting with us. In the last round of talks in Washington, they refused to sit in the same room with the Palestinians. They said we don’t recognise you. We must sit only with the Jordanians. And that is what they are stalling. But I think in their hearts they know that the inevitable is upon them. They are going to have to deal with us. The real question now, of course, is how much and how long America is going to indulge them in this fantasy of not dealing with us.
Herald. There has been some criticism of this specific administration, the Bush administration, over its decision to join this month’s United Nations resolution condemning Israel for its latest deportations of Palestinians. How do you feel about that?
Said. I don’t take very seriously the changes that have occurred in the policies of this country under the Bush-Baker administration. I think it is very important to remember that this is the first American administration to attempt and partially succeed in destroying a major Arab country.
This is an administration that uses the United Nations to continue to violate the sovereignty of Iraq, which is one of the two major Arab countries. It is an administration that has granted nothing to Palestinian nationalism at all except cosmetic improvement in its image after the end of the Gulf war.
It needs a ‘Peace Victory’ to make up for what it was not able to do in Iraq to bring down the regime of Saddam. He is a tyrant, I will say it, and what he did in Kuwait was absolutely wrong, but the Americans have not solved the problems of the region. They have caused rifts between Arab states. They have caused a huge amount of human suffering and waste and violence. What they are doing now with this so called peace process is, I will repeat, a cosmetic attempt to restore the lustre of George Bush’s image as a peacemaker and, at the same time, to express a sort of petulance at Israel’s behavior.
But petulance is not enough. Israel continues to settle and appropriate the land. Israel continues to deport. Israel continues to kill. Israel continues to imprison. Israel continues to clamp down the curfews, twenty-four hours a day. And the United Nations has not withheld one cent of the five billion dollars annually sent to Israel in US aid. That is against the law of this country. The law says that gross violations of human rights have to result in curtailment of US aid to the recipient country. That has never happened.
So, I am not one of those people who think this is a historical breakthrough that United States has changed its policy. They are still exacting from the Palestinians concessions they are too scared to ask from the Israelis. I will give you a simple example. The two Palestinians who negotiated with Baker for six months, from March until the beginning of August, were Hanan Ashrawi and Faisal Hussaini, and Baker praised them publicly in Madrid for their negotiations.
Neither one of them was allowed to come to the Peace Palace in Madrid because Israel said we cannot have these people since they are affiliated with the PLO and they are real leaders. The official reason they gave was that they were from East Jerusalem. And America accepted these conditions, so what are we talking about? We are talking about an administration that is too afraid, too tied to the past, to subservient to whether its Saudi Arabia on the one hand or the Israeli lobby on the other, to make any courageous advancements in the progress towards peace.
Herald. Is it true that Shamir had once objected to George Shultz meeting you?
Said. Not only that, he wouldn’t allow me into the country. In the spring of 1988, I wanted to go with my family and he wouldn’t allow it. I am an American citizen but he expressly forbade me from entering the country. We are dealing with a really lousy situation here. And, to get back to the point, I don’t see a vote in the United Nations where the United States condemns a flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention is all that significant.
First of all, who is going to enforce the resolution? What astonishes me is the Arabs accepting that as a reason for coming back to the talks. We got nothing from it. Just a condemnation. So what. There are already sixty-four UN Security council resolutions condemning Israel for one or other abuse of Palestinian rights. Not one of them has been implemented, and the reason they haven’t been implemented in the United States.
Herald. Talking of resolutions, you gave an interview once to Salman Rushdie in which you described Zionism as the touchstone of contemporary political judgement in America. You said a lot of people who are happy to attack apartheid or to talk about US intervention in Central America are not prepared to "talk about Zionism and what it has done to Palestinians."
You said that here in the United States, if you say anything about Zionism you are seen as "joining classical European or western anti-Semitism. Therefore, you said, it has become "absolutely necessary to concentrate on the particular history and context of Zionism in discussing what it represents for the Palestinian."
Said. The important part of that phrase is "for the Palestinian." Zionism for the Jew was a wonderful thing. They say it was their liberation movement. They say it was that which gave them sovereignty. They established institutions which they never had before, etcetra etcetra. The list is very long. So, I am not talking about that. That's good. It's fine. But so far as the Palestinians are concerned, we re the victims of Zionism.
Herald. But this undertaking itself, of making this position known, how will it be affected by the reversal of the United Nations resolution equating Zionism with racism?
Said. Well, look, I was never happy with the resolution. To say that Zionism is a form of racism is to be sufficiently clear about, and insufficiently sensitive to, what Zionism did for the Jews; for the Jews on the one hand and to the Palestinians on the other. In the Question of Palestine, I talk about it. To me, Zionism is Zionism. I don’t have to equate it with anything else.
But for the Palestinians today, Zionism means: number one, the shattering of their society; number two, the dispossession of their population; number three, and most importantly, the continuing oppression of the Palestinians as a people. To give you an example, Israel is the only state in the world which is not a state of its own citizens, it is a state of the Jewish people, if you happen to be a non-Jew in that Jewish state (and there are some 800,00 Palestinians who are Israeli citizens) and you are referred to as a non-Jew and you are discriminated against simply because you are not Jewish.
Jews are allowed to return to Israel by the law of return. I was born there but I can’t. Jews can buy and lease and rent land in Israel. Palestinians cannot. And on the West Bank and Gaza, in the Occupied Territories, Palestinians are discriminated against in ways Jews are not discriminated against. Settlers on the West Bank and Gaza can take away land from Palestinians and just live on it.
However, in spite of all these things, I must say that the resolution on Zionism and racism was a tremendously unfortunate episode. It was partly the euphoria of the early seventies, with the Afro-Asian movement in full bloom, and the Soviet Union still a player, and the Islamic movement heating up, which caused it to come about. It was badly thought through, insufficiently sensitive as I said, and as a result of it we, the Palestinians, have paid a very high political price. It became a stumbling block. But that is in the past now.
Herald. You were just saying that you are not allowed to buy land. One of the most important piece of land at issue, of course, is Jerusalem itself. The peace process which has just been started is torturously slow. Do you believe, by the time this process comes to fruition, there will be any chance left at all for non-Jews to lay claim on Jerusalem.
Said. I don’t see any a way of resolving the problem if Israel continues to hold on to the whole of Jerusalem. I am not saying that I am repartitioning of Jerusalem, I am not. I think it should remain a united city. But there should be an imaginative way for Palestinians to see in Jerusalem, of at least Arab or East Jerusalem, their capital. It has to be.
It means a lot to Palestinians. And, of course, it also means a tremendous amount to the Islamic world. Jerusalem is not just a Palestinian city. It is also a city with great significance for a billion Muslims. So, some arrangement has to be made whereby Israel cannot go on dispossessing Palestinians within Jerusalem. But I must repeat I am not for the repartitioning of the city.
I think something should be done in an imaginative way so the city, which is a universal city, can express the hopes and traditions of the three faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Herald. Something on the lines of the Vatican, would you say?
Said. Something like that, without necessarily internationalizing it. But something of that sort, rather than cutting it up again or keeping it unified under Israeli control.
Herald. Now let’s talk about intimidation. And we know it’s a sensitive issue. As a highly visible spokesperson for the Palestinian cause, you have been targeted by the various groups who turn out and protest when you deliver papers, who attack you in print, hand out leaflets quoting you out of context and so on. They call you an Ambassador of Terrorism. All these unpleasant incidents have taken place.
Said. Well, there have even been death threats. What can you do?
Herald. Tell us what bothers you the most about all this.
Said. Well, what bothers me most, I think, is the lying and the injustice that’s involved, because by any standard whatsoever, I am a victim. I was chased out of the house. I lost my homeland. And my people have continued to be killed and be mistreated, in the hundreds of thousands. And yet these people are mounting the viscous campaign not only to continue to hurt me and my people in these concrete ways but also to heap all kinds of lies and opprobrium upon me and to call me a terrorist and what not. That’s number one.
Number two, in America, I have no real way of responding. That bothers me a lot. Many of the people who have attacked me and written about me in slanderous and libelous ways have entire magazines at their disposal. Commentary, for instance, the magazine of the American Jewish Committee, which is one of them, gives them space to write whatever they want. I, on the other hand, don’t have a magazine to write in. So, it’s very hard, if you know what I am trying to say. In other words, there is no organized equivalent to the platform that the enemies of the Palestinians have in this country.
The third, most galling thing of all, is that the Arabs and the Muslims, in this country and elsewhere have never organised themselves together and tried to put forward a credible, alternative view to that put forward about us-not about me necessarily but about us-the Zionist lobby in this country. It’s a crime. We are the inheritors of a great tradition and a great civilisation. We have many talented people and yet we cannot, just cannot, work together.
The Palestinians work not only in five different directions but frequently in opposing ones. The Syrians work by themselves. There is no attempt to take ourselves seriously as members of a nation. And it really goes back about what I said earlier about the condition of the Arab world: It’s a sink. It’s a sink of corruption and mediocrity and the most appalling and murderous tyrannies. There are no democratic freedoms. It’s just a dreadful place.
And yet, it is a place to which I feel attached; it’s where I am from, and my family is from. I mean, I am not about to give up. And I won’t do what the Samir El Khalils and the Fouad Ajamis of the world want to do, which is to set up in this country, the United States, and to become apologists for the enemies of the Arabs. I won’t play that game.